Narrative
5. The President 's Unsuccessful Attempts to Block Key Witnesses
Despite President Trump 's explicit orders that no Executive Branch employees should cooperate with the House 's impeachment inquiry and efforts by federal agencies to limit the testimony of those who did, multiple key officials complied with duly authorized subpoenas and provided critical testimony at depositions and public hearings. These officials adhered to the rule of law and obeyed lawful subpoenas.
Overview
Despite President Trump 's orders that no Executive Branch employees should cooperate with the House 's impeachment inquiry, multiple key officials complied with duly authorized subpoenas and provided critical testimony at depositions and public hearings. These officials not only served their nation honorably, but they fulfilled their oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States.
In addition to the President 's broad orders seeking to prohibit all Executive Branch employees from testifying, many of these witnesses were personally directed by senior political appointees not to cooperate with the House 's impeachment inquiry. These directives frequently cited or enclosed copies of Mr. Cipollone 's October 8 letter conveying the President 's order not to comply.
For example, the State Department, relying on President Trump 's order, attempted to block Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch from testifying, but she fulfilled her legal obligations by appearing at a deposition on October 11 and a hearing on November 15. More than a dozen current and former officials followed her courageous example by testifying at depositions and public hearings over the course of the last two months. The testimony from these witnesses produced overwhelming and clear evidence of President Trump 's misconduct, which is described in detail in Section I of this report.
Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch, Former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine, Department of State
On September 13, the Committees sent a letter to Secretary of State Mike Pompeo seeking a transcribed interview with Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch and other State Department officials. The Committees received no direct, substantive response to this letter.
On September 27, the Committees sent a letter informing Secretary Pompeo that Ambassador Yovanovitch 's deposition was being scheduled on October 2, stating:
On September 13, the Committees wrote to request that you make State Department employees available for transcribed interviews. We asked you to provide, by September 20, dates by which the employees would be made available for transcribed interviews. You failed to comply with the Committees ' request.
Also on September 27, the Committees sent a letter directly to Ambassador Yovanovitch seeking her appearance at a deposition on October 2.
On October 1, Secretary Pompeo sent a letter to the Committees stating:
Therefore, the five officials subject to your letter may not attend any interview or deposition without counsel from the Executive Branch present to ensure that the Executive Branch 's constitutional authority to control the disclosure of confidential information, including deliberative matters and diplomatic communications, is not impaired.
After further discussions with Ambassador Yovanovitch 's counsel, her deposition was rescheduled for October 11. On October 10, Brian Bulatao, the Under Secretary of State for Management, sent a letter to Ambassador Yovanovitch 's personal attorney directing Ambassador Yovanovitch not to appear for her deposition and enclosing Mr. Cipollone 's October 8 letter stating that President Trump and his Administration would not participate in the House 's impeachment inquiry. Mr. Bulatao 's letter stated:
Accordingly, in accordance with applicable law, I write on behalf of the Department of State, pursuant to the President 's instruction reflected in Mr. Cipollone 's letter, to instruct your client( as a current employee of the Department of State), consistent with Mr. Cipollone 's letter, not to appear before the Committees under the present circumstances.
That same day, October 10, when asked whether he intended to block Ambassador Yovanovitch from testifying the next day, President Trump stated:" You know, I do n't think people should be allowed. You have to run a country, I do n't think you should be allowed to do that.''
On the morning of Ambassador Yovanovitch 's deposition on October 11, the Committees sent a letter to her personal attorney transmitting a subpoena compelling her appearance, stating:
In light of recent attempts by the Administration to direct your client not to appear voluntarily for the deposition, the enclosed subpoena now compels your client 's mandatory appearance at today 's deposition on October 11, 2019.
Later on October 11, Ambassador Yovanovitch 's personal attorney sent a letter to Mr. Bulatao, stating:
In my capacity as counsel for Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch, I have received your letter of October 10, 2019, directing the Ambassador not to appear voluntarily for her scheduled deposition testimony on October 11, 2019 before the Committee on Foreign Affairs, the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, and the Committee on Oversight and Reform in connection with the House of Representatives 's impeachment inquiry. Just this morning, the Ambassador received a subpoena issued by the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, requiring her to appear for the deposition as scheduled. Although the Ambassador has faithfully and consistently honored her professional duties as a State Department employee-- including at all times following her abrupt termination as U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine-- she is unable to obey your most recent directive. As the recipient of a duly issued congressional subpoena, Ambassador Yovanovitch is, in my judgment, legally obligated to attend the depositions as scheduled.
Ambassador Yovanovitch participated in the deposition on October 11, in compliance with the Committees ' subpoena. During her deposition, Ambassador Yovanovitch 's personal attorney confirmed that" she received a direction by the Under Secretary to decline to appear voluntarily.''
On November 15, the Committees transmitted a subpoena to Ambassador Yovanovitch compelling her to testify at a public hearing of the Intelligence Committee that same day. Ambassador Yovanovitch complied with the Committees ' subpoena and testified at the public hearing. During the hearing, Chairman Schiff acknowledged Ambassador Yovanovitch 's compliance, stating:
Ambassador, I want to thank you for your decades of service. I want to thank you, as Mr. Maloney said, for being the first one through the gap. What you did in coming forward and answering a lawful subpoena was to give courage to others that also witnessed wrongdoing, that they, too, could show the same courage that you have, that they could stand up, speak out, answer questions, they could endure whatever threats, insults may come their way. And so in your long and distinguished career you have done another great public service in answering the call of our subpoena and testifying before us today.
Ambassador Gordon Sondland, U.S. Ambassador to the European Union, Department of State
On September 27, 2019, the Committees sent a letter informing Secretary Pompeo that Ambassador Gordon Sondland 's deposition was being scheduled on October 10. That same day, the Committees sent a letter directly to Ambassador Sondland seeking his appearance at the deposition. On October 1, Secretary Pompeo sent a letter to the Committees stating that Ambassador Sondland" may not attend'' the deposition.
After further discussions with Ambassador Sondland 's personal attorney, his deposition was rescheduled for October 8. On October 7, Mr. Bulatao sent a letter to Ambassador Sondland 's personal attorney, stating:
Based on consultations with the White House, the State Department hereby instructs your client, Ambassador Gordon Sondland, not to appear tomorrow for his voluntary deposition based on the Executive Branch confidentiality interests remaining to be addressed, including, in particular, the Committee 's refusal to permit agency counsel to appear.
On October 8, Ambassador Sondland 's personal attorney sent an email to the Committees stating:
I am incredibly disappointed to report that, overnight, the State Department advised that it will direct Ambassador Sondland not to appear before the Committee this morning. While we have not yet gotten written confirmation of that direction, we wanted to advise you of this development at the earliest opportunity. As the sitting US Ambassador to the EU and employee of the State Department, Ambassador Sondland is required to follow this direction. I hope that whatever concerns the Department has can be resolved promptly and that Ambassador Sondland 's testimony can be scheduled at the earliest opportunity. I am very sorry for the inexcusably late notice, but we are sharing this with you as soon as it was confirmed to us. Ambassador Sondland is personally disappointed that he will not be able to answer the Committee 's questions this morning.
On October 8, the Committees sent a letter to Ambassador Sondland transmitting a subpoena compelling his appearance at a deposition on October 16, stating:
The Committees have not received any communication directly from the White House or the State Department about this matter. In light of Secretary Pompeo 's direct intervention to block your appearance before our Committees, we are left with no choice but to compel your appearance at a deposition pursuant to the enclosed subpoena.
On October 14, the Committees sent a letter to Ambassador Sondland stating:
We hereby write to memorialize our agreement with your counsel, Mr. Robert Luskin, Esq., to adjourn the date and time of your document production and deposition to October 17, 2019, at 9:30 a.m. at the Capitol, HVC-304.
Ambassador Sondland participated in the deposition on October 17, in compliance with the Committees ' subpoena. During the deposition, Ambassador Sondland 's personal attorney stated:
But we also wish to emphasize that it 's his belief, and ours, that the Committee should have access to all relevant documents, and he regrets that they have not been provided in advance of his testimony. Having those documents would lead to a more fulsome and accurate inquiry into the matters at hand. Indeed, Ambassador Sondland has not had access to all of the State Department records that would help him refresh his recollection in anticipation of this testimony.
During the deposition, Ambassador Sondland stated:
I was truly disappointed that the State Department prevented me at the last minute from testifying earlier on October 8, 2019. But your issuance of a subpoena has supported my appearance here today, and I 'm pleased to provide the following testimony.
On November 4, Ambassador Sondland 's personal attorney transmitted to the Committees a sworn declaration from Ambassador Sondland, which supplemented his deposition testimony and noted that despite" repeated requests to the White House and the State Department,'' he still had not been granted access to records he sought to review to determine if he could" provide more complete testimony to assist Congress.''
On November 20, the Committees transmitted a subpoena to Ambassador Sondland compelling him to testify at a public hearing of the Intelligence Committee that same day. Ambassador Sondland complied with the Committees ' subpoena and testified at the public hearing. During the hearing, Ambassador Sondland described the direction he received from the White House:
Q: Ambassador Sondland, in your deposition, you lamented, quote: I was truly disappointed that the State Department prevented me at the last minute from testifying earlier on October 8, 2019, but your issuance of a subpoena has supported my appearance here today, and I am pleased to provide the following testimony. So it is clear that the White House, the State Department did not want you to testify at that deposition. Is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: And since then, you have on numerous occasions during your opening statement today indicated that you have not been able to access documents in the State Department. Is that correct?
A: Correct.
Q: So you have been hampered in your ability to provide testimony to this committee. Is that correct? A: I have been hampered to provide completely accurate testimony without the benefit of those documents.
George P. Kent, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State, Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs, Department of State
On September 13, 2019, the Committees sent a letter to Secretary of State Pompeo seeking a transcribed interview with Deputy Assistant Secretary of State George Kent and other State Department officials. The Committees received no direct, substantive response to this letter.
On September 27, the Committees sent a letter informing Secretary Pompeo that Mr. Kent 's deposition was being scheduled on October 7. That same day, the Committees sent a letter directly to Mr. Kent seeking his appearance at the deposition on that date. Later that day, Mr. Kent sent an email to Committee staff acknowledging receipt of the Committees ' request and copying an official from the Office of Legislative Affairs at the Department of State. On October 1, Secretary Pompeo sent a letter to the Committees stating that Mr. Kent" may not attend'' the deposition.
After consulting with Mr. Kent 's personal attorney, the Committees rescheduled his deposition for October 15. On October 10, Under Secretary Bulatao sent a letter to Mr. Kent 's personal attorney enclosing the White House Counsel 's letter of October 8, and stating: I write on behalf of the Department of State, pursuant to the President 's instruction reflected in Mr. Cipollone 's letter, to instruct your client( as a current employee of the Department of State), consistent with Mr. Cipollone 's letter, not to appear before the Committees under the present circumstances.
On October 15, the Committees sent a letter to Mr. Kent 's personal attorney transmitting a subpoena compelling him to appear at a deposition on that date.
Mr. Kent participated in the deposition on October 15, in compliance with the Committees ' subpoena. During the deposition, he stated:
As you all know, I am appearing here in response to your congressional subpoena. If I did not appear I would have been exposed to being held in contempt. At the same time, I have been instructed by my employer, the U.S. Department of State, not to appear. I do not know the Department of State 's views on disregarding that order.
On November 13, the Committees transmitted a subpoena to Mr. Kent compelling him to testify at a public hearing before the Intelligence Committee on that day. Mr. Kent complied with the Committees ' subpoena and testified at the public hearing. During the hearing, Mr. Kent described the direction he received from the White House, stating that he" received, initially, a letter directing me not to appear. And once the committees issued a subpoena, I was under legal obligation to appear, and I am here today under subpoena.''
Ambassador William B. Taylor, Jr., Chargé d'Affaires for U.S. Embassy in Kyiv, Department of State
On October 4, 2019, the Committees sent a letter to Deputy Secretary of State John Sullivan seeking a deposition with Ambassador William B. Taylor, Jr. on October 15. That same day, the Committees sent a letter directly to Ambassador Taylor seeking his appearance at the deposition.
On October 14, after consulting with Ambassador Taylor 's counsel, the Committees sent a letter to Ambassador Taylor stating:" We hereby write to adjourn the date and time of your deposition to Tuesday, October 22, 2019, at 9:30 a.m. at the Capitol, HVC-304.''
On October 22, the Committees transmitted a subpoena to Ambassador Taylor 's personal attorneys compelling Ambassador Taylor to appear at a deposition on that date, stating:
In light of recent attempts by the Administration to direct witnesses not to appear voluntarily for depositions, the enclosed subpoena compels your client 's mandatory appearance at today 's deposition.
Ambassador Taylor participated in the deposition on October 22, in compliance with the Committees ' subpoena. During the deposition, Ambassador Taylor 's personal attorney stated, in regard to communications with the Department of State:
They sent us the directive that said he should not appear under I think the quote is under the present circumstances. We told the majority that we could not appear; he 'd been instructed not to. We saw the pattern.
On November 13, the Committees transmitted a subpoena to Ambassador Taylor compelling him to testify at a public hearing of the Intelligence Committee that same day. Ambassador Taylor complied with the Committees ' subpoena and testified at the public hearing. During the hearing, Ambassador Taylor described the direction he received from the State Department:
Q: Ambassador, were you also asked not to be part of the deposition?
A: Mr. Quigley, I was told by the State Department: Do n't appear under these circumstances. That was in the letter to me. And when I got the subpoena, exactly as Mr. Kent said, that was different circumstances and obeyed a legal subpoena. So, yes, sir, I 'm here for that reason.
Catherine Croft and Christopher Anderson, Department of State
On October 24, 2019, the Committees sent letters to the personal attorney representing two State Department officials, Catherine Croft and Christopher Anderson, seeking their attendance at depositions on October 30 and November 1, respectively.
On October 25, their attorney sent a letter to the Committees acknowledging receipt of the Committees ' requests and stating that" we are in the process of contacting the Office of the Legal Advisor of the Department of State in an effort to learn the disposition of that Office with regard to the Committee 's request.''
On October 28, Under Secretary Bulatao sent letters to the personal attorney for Ms. Croft and Mr. Anderson. Both letters enclosed the White House Counsel 's October 8 letter and stated:
Pursuant to Mr. Cipollone 's letter and in light of these defects, we are writing to inform you and Ms. Croft of the Administration-wide direction that Executive Branch personnel" can not participate in[ the impeachment] inquiry under these circumstances.''
On October 30, the Committees transmitted subpoenas to the personal attorney for Ms. Croft and Mr. Anderson compelling their appearance at depositions on October 30, stating:
In light of recent attempts by the Administration to direct witnesses not to appear voluntarily for depositions, the enclosed subpoenas compel your clients ' mandatory appearance.
Ms. Croft and Mr. Anderson participated in their depositions on October 30, in compliance with the Committees ' subpoenas. During Ms. Croft 's deposition, her personal attorney stated:
On October 28th, 2019, Ms. Croft received a letter through her lawyers from Under Secretary of State Brian Bulatao, in which we were instructed that Ms. Croft can not participate in the impeachment inquiry being conducted by the House of Representatives and these committees. Under Secretary Bulatao 's letter stated that these instructions were issued pursuant to a directive from the Office of White House Counsel. Nonetheless, Ms. Croft has been served with a valid subpoena, and so she is obliged to be here today.
During Mr. Anderson 's deposition, his personal attorney stated:
On October 28th, 2019, Mr. Anderson received a letter, through his lawyers, from Under Secretary of State Brian Bulatao in which we were instructed that Mr. Anderson can not participate in the impeachment inquiry being conducted by the House of Representatives and these committees. Under Secretary Bulatao 's letter stated that these instructions were issued pursuant to a directive from the Office of White House Counsel. Nonetheless, Mr. Anderson has been served with a valid subpoena, and so he is obliged to be here today.
Laura K. Cooper, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Russia, Ukraine, and Eurasia, Department of Defense
On October 11, the Committees sent a letter to Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense Laura K. Cooper seeking her attendance at a deposition on October 18.
After consulting with Ms. Cooper 's personal attorney, the Committees rescheduled her deposition for October 23.
On October 22, Deputy Secretary of Defense David L. Norquist sent a letter to Ms. Cooper 's personal attorney, stating:
This letter informs you and Ms. Cooper of the Administration-wide direction that Executive Branch personnel" can not participate in[ the impeachment] inquiry under these circumstances''[ Tab C]. In the event that the Committees issue a subpoena to compel Ms. Cooper 's appearance, you should be aware that the Supreme Court has held, in United States v. Rumely, 345 U.S. 41( 1953), that a person can not be sanctioned for refusing to comply with a congressional subpoena unauthorized by House Rule or Resolution.
On October 23, the Committees sent an email transmitting a subpoena compelling Ms. Cooper to appear at a deposition on that date, stating:
In light of recent attempts by the Administration to direct witnesses not to appear voluntarily for depositions, the enclosed subpoena compels your client 's mandatory appearance at today 's deposition.
Ms. Cooper participated in the deposition on October 23, in compliance with the Committees ' subpoena.
During her deposition, Ms. Cooper stated with regard to the Department of Defense," They instructed me yesterday not to participate.''
On November 20, the Committees transmitted a subpoena to Ms. Cooper compelling her to testify at a public hearing before the Intelligence Committee on that day. Ms. Cooper complied with the Committees ' subpoena and testified at the public hearing.
Mark Sandy, Deputy Associate Director of National Security Programs, Office of Management and Budget
On November 5, the Committees sent a letter to Mark Sandy, the Deputy Associate Director of National Security Programs at OMB, seeking his appearance at a deposition on November 8. On November 6, Mr. Sandy responded to confirm receipt of the Committees ' letter.
On November 7, an attorney at OMB sent an email to Committee staff stating:
In light of the Committee 's rules that prohibit agency counsel from being present in a deposition of an executive branch witness and consistent with the November 1, 2019 OLC letter opinion addressing this issue, OMB has directed Mr. Sandy not to appear at tomorrow 's deposition.
After consulting with Mr. Sandy 's personal attorney, the Committees rescheduled his deposition for November 16.
On November 16, the Committees sent an email transmitting a subpoena compelling Mr. Sandy to appear at a deposition on that date, stating:
In light of recent attempts by the Administration to direct witnesses not to appear voluntarily for depositions, the enclosed subpoena compels your client 's mandatory appearance.
Mr. Sandy participated in the deposition on November 16, in compliance with the Committees ' subpoena. During his deposition, Mr. Sandy also testified that the Administration sent his personal attorney an official communication with further direction, stating:" It did direct me to have my personal counsel ask for a postponement until agency counsel could accompany me.''
Dr. Fiona Hill, Former Deputy Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Europe and Russia, National Security Council
On October 9, 2019, the Committees sent a letter seeking Dr. Hill 's testimony at a deposition on October 14. On October 13, Dr. Hill 's personal attorney informed the White House that she intended to appear at the scheduled deposition. On October 14, the White House sent a letter to Dr. Hill 's personal attorney stating that" Dr. Hill is not authorized to reveal or release any classified information or any information subject to executive privilege.'' Also on October 14, the Committees sent Dr. Hill a subpoena seeking her testimony the same day. Dr. Hill complied and participated in the deposition.
On November 18, Dr. Hill 's personal attorney sent a letter to the White House stating that Dr. Hill had been invited to provide testimony at a public hearing on November 21, and stating:" We continue to disagree with regard to the parameters of executive privilege as you articulated it on October 14 and our prior telephone calls.'' On November 20, the White House sent a letter to Dr. Hill 's personal attorney stating that Dr. Hill" continues to be bound by important obligations to refrain from disclosing classified information or information subject to executive privilege in her upcoming testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.'' On November 21, the Committees sent Dr. Hill a subpoena seeking her testimony the same day. Dr. Hill also complied with this subpoena and testified at the public hearing.
Lieutenant Colonel Alexander S. Vindman, Director for Ukraine, National Security Council
On October 16, 2019, the Committees sent a letter seeking Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman 's testimony at a deposition on October 24. After discussions with Lt. Col. Vindman 's personal attorneys, the deposition was rescheduled to October 29. On October 29, the Committees sent Lt. Col. Vindman a subpoena seeking his testimony the same day. Lt. Col. Vindman complied. In addition, on November 19, the Committees conveyed a subpoena seeking Lt. Col. Vindman 's testimony at a public hearing that same day. Lt. Col. Vindman also complied with this subpoena and testified at the public hearing.
Timothy Morrison, Former Deputy Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Europe and Russia, National Security Council
On October 16, 2019, the Committees sent a letter to Timothy Morrison seeking his testimony at a deposition on October 25. After discussions with Mr. Morrison 's personal attorney, the deposition was rescheduled to October 31. On October 31, the Committees sent Mr. Morrison a subpoena seeking his testimony the same day. Mr. Morrison complied. In addition, on November 19, the Committees conveyed a subpoena seeking Mr. Morrison 's testimony at a public hearing that same day. Mr. Morrison also complied with this subpoena and testified at the public hearing.
David Hale, Under Secretary for Political Affairs, Department of State
On November 1, 2019, the Committees sent a letter seeking Under Secretary David Hale 's testimony at a deposition on November 6. On November 5, Mr. Hale 's counsel wrote to the Committees, stating that Mr. Hale would be willing to testify pursuant to a subpoena.
On November 6, the Committees sent Mr. Hale a subpoena seeking his testimony the same day. Mr. Hale complied. In addition, on November 20, the Committees conveyed a subpoena seeking Mr. Hale 's testimony at a public hearing that same day. Mr. Hale also complied with this subpoena and testified at the public hearing.
David Holmes, Counselor for Political Affairs at the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv, Ukraine, Department of State
On November 12, 2019, the Committees sent a letter to Political Counselor David Holmes ' personal attorney seeking his testimony at a deposition on November 15. On November 15, the Committees conveyed a subpoena to Mr. Holmes ' personal attorney seeking his testimony the same day. Mr. Holmes complied. In addition, on November 21, the Committees conveyed a subpoena seeking Mr. Holmes ' testimony at a public hearing that same day. Mr. Holmes also complied with this subpoena and testified at the public hearing.
Ambassador P. Michael McKinley, Former Senior Advisor to the Secretary of State, Department of State
On October 12, 2019, Committee staff emailed Ambassador P. Michael McKinley requesting his voluntary participation in a transcribed interview on October 16. On October 14, the Committees sent a letter formalizing this request. On October 16, Ambassador McKinley participated in the scheduled transcribed interview.
Ambassador Philip T. Reeker, Acting Assistant Secretary, Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs, Department of State
On October 16, 2019, the Committees sent a letter seeking Ambassador Philip T. Reeker 's testimony at a deposition on October 23. On October 25, the Committees sent Ambassador Reeker a subpoena seeking his testimony on October 26. Ambassador Reeker complied and testified at the scheduled deposition.
Ambassador Kurt Volker, Former U.S. Special Representative for Ukraine Negotiations, Department of State
On September 13, 2019, the Committees wrote a letter to Secretary Pompeo requesting the testimony of four witnesses, including Ambassador Kurt Volker. On September 27, the Committees sent a follow up letter to Secretary Pompeo, noting that Ambassador Volker 's deposition had been scheduled for October 3. On that same day, the Committees sent a letter directly to Ambassador Volker, seeking his testimony at the deposition scheduled for October 3.
On October 1, Secretary Pompeo responded to the Committees, refusing to make Ambassador Volker available on the requested date. On October 2, the Department of State wrote a letter to Ambassador Volker 's counsel instructing Ambassador Volker not to reveal classified or privileged information and prohibiting Ambassador Volker from producing any government documents.
On October 2, Ambassador Volker produced copies of text messages in response to the Committees ' request. On October 3, Ambassador Volker voluntarily participated in a transcribed interview. In addition, on November 19, Ambassador Volker testified voluntarily at a public hearing.
Jennifer Williams, Special Advisor for Europe and Russia, Office of the Vice President
On November 4, 2019, the Committees sent a letter to Jennifer Williams seeking her testimony at a deposition on November 7. On November 7, the Committees sent Ms. Williams a subpoena seeking her testimony the same day. Ms. Williams complied. On November 11, Ms. Williams sent a letter to Chairman Schiff to make one amendment to her deposition testimony. In addition, on November 19, the Committees conveyed a subpoena seeking Ms. William 's testimony at a public hearing on November 19. Ms. Williams also complied with this subpoena and testified at the public hearing.